Okay, nice, nice, awesome. So for how many years you were working at the office and now it's eight years you're all working remotely, right?

Yeah, so MailerLite was born ten years ago, so for the first two years everybody were in one small room.

Okay, and what differences do you see? Especially in terms of hiring and recruiting people - is it easier or more difficult?

I think it depends. It was much more easier before Covid and I think it was our big competitive advantage and when Covid hit and everybody went remote I was kind of bit in a panic, thinking, what can we do differently right now because we're losing our competitive edge and it's still not true I think, well to begin with, you know much less about the candidates that you're hiring. Because usually you can't get any recommendations. You don't know the workplaces, you have no idea what kind of university they went to, because you have never heard that before. Another thing that is I think is really important when you work remotely, usually the only way to do that successfully, you have to have more of a synchronous communication and it mostly means written communication. So from our perspective we tend to base our hiring on writing more other than on interviews because we want to hire people who are able to write and writing is a really interesting thing because the only way to write is you have to start with thinking and I think it's much more thoughtful communication when the whole team is writing. Yeah so in our case, for long time what we have been doing and I think with MailerLite we still do -  people that wanted to join our team, they had to create a newsletter about themselves using MailerLite as a platform. So first it was a great way to promote our product. Another thing was that people would be working with a product later on so it's good for them to have a sense if they like it or not and another thing it was really a great way to see how they express themselves in writing.

Plus how tech savvy they are in order to start the campaign using your platform. Okay, this is very interesting, I actually read this in your book and I think it's a very nice case scenario and not a boring task you have to do but it's also creative, you can learn something new. So it's also beneficial for candidates themselves I believe and most of the candidates from my own experience, usually they like to perform any task during the selection process because this is the chance basically to show themselves off, what they're capable of and etc. Sometimes there is a misperception that we might save time for candidates right? To get less info and well it's not true. They would be really willing to do if they are motivated right? So It's very easy to test motivation.

Exactly. Yeah, so I think this is what really important as well because they make a decision if we're right fit beforehand, so usually these people are not just searching for any job. They're searching for writing team for them to join. So this is why we're really transparent and we post a lot of things about our culture, our team and I think that's another thing, working remotely, because candidates don't know you as well, so it's really good to be transparent and clear how you work as a team.

Yeah, totally agree. And since this is a recruitment failures podcast, could you share any failures you had?

Of course, I think even that part about writing it came out of the failure because failure, if you can make a lesson out of it, it's not a failure, it's experience. So from my experience, I am a very positive and optimistic person. So whenever I see somebody smiling somebody having a great energy, I usually would hire them. And that was pretty tricky because then I would kind of be super biased because some people they're really great at interviews. But it doesn't mean that they're the best fit for that particular position right. So this is why I'm really happy that we went with a newsletter and with more writing communication because for me, it was really helpful to leave interviews at the end of the stage because this is when I already know that these people are great specialists. They're great candidates. And right now I'll just check if I like them personally because before I would just hire anyone I liked and usually it would end up being a failure because I would have so much fun talking. But then I would have nothing you know, we wouldn't perform together. It was just a fun conversation. So I think another thing is just there's like no point to hire yourself, you already have it. So I think it's really important to remember why whom you hire and even in the hiring process to add these things, to think beforehand. How you can check these things if they are a right fit for you and what you are actually looking for because it's not just specialists, sometimes if you have a team, if you're not hiring a freelancer for one project, you do want to check if they can work in a team right? You don't want to have I don't know a rock star most probably, so I think setting up your hiring process in a way where you can check and be as subjective as possible. It's good for me to kind of have less failures and less lessons.

Yeah, there is a saying that a good person is not a profession, right? So of course what matters are skills and competencies. But I really liked also in your book, you mentioned that it's a very good way to decide about the person's suitability or match to your culture, right? Is to imagine if you could live together for a week in one house right? This really gives you some kind of the understanding of how much do you like and basically appreciate communicating with that person..

Yeah, in our case, it doesn't start with the question itself. It started because we were actually planning a team workation in Bali and we knew that we're going to be living with our team members in 1 house for the whole winter. Not just to have it a theoretically asking a question but you actually knew that you're going to be living together and it's not just us, we were living with our kid as well. So I wanted to have people that I write examples to my kids so it's still kind of true, even though it started kind of being really practical question and until now we do make workations when we meet once or twice a year with the whole team. And I think that's a big filter for the potential candidates as well because some people they wouldn't want to travel around the world to meet more than 10000 team members that they haven't met before, it is uncomfortable, for us communicating upfront, that it's a must, it's like a business trip for us. Not just saying why people should apply but sharing your culture and maybe even saying some things which people shouldn't apply. It's a good filter. You know to kind of shorten the process and don't waste everybody's time right.

I think so too and we also had a similar like 1 case situation, I'm not saying that everyone should go to workations because there are some special occasions, like the birth of child or some other things in their lives. So not everyone could attend 100 %,sure but if you see and we had this case that I saw that one person is perfectly capable to join us but they didn't want to and for me it was a red flag and I had one-to-one and I was like so what is happening, why not and they were very cold, I think, with the answers and it scared me even more and after a few weeks I got the inquiry to terminate the contract so it is a thing, if you're motivated to be and to work with these people together, you would come to meet them, because it's nice to socialize for human beings. It's the most nice thing right? So it also can check the motivation. But, could you give any specific example when you hired and then you would personally felt that it's something wrong and it was pretty difficult to deal with, maybe you have some insights for that? What was the most regretful failure?

Well I remember once and it was years ago, we were looking for an administrator and it's a really hard position because kind of almost everyone can apply and then you have no idea who's the right fit because it's just what do you check right. So we got really hundreds of applications and in the final I didn't choose the lady that was amazing candidate because I thought that she was too creative for the position. So instead I went with another one that we said goodbye to in a month and then the creative one joined us. She's still with us. And my takeaway was that I don't have to put my own perceptions on somebody - if somebody thinks that it's a right position for them, they should do it and actually especially creativity is a  tricky thing because creative people they can find creativity, wherever it is, I mean you can be so creative being administrator because your job list is just so wide right? And I think another thing is not sometimes wouldn't hire somebody because we thought they're like they're too competent that like too good for us and that's another thing if somebody is already applying they made a decision. Why should I put on my own opinions if we are right fit for them or not? So I think I would always go with somebody that I think is the best right now and without putting all my kind of opinions on that.

Yeah, it is like this, sometimes somehow we feel this right to make the decision for other peoples right? Even when they say that well I can find a lot of creativity here. We just judge that, no, maybe go and find another job position right? And it's super interesting how we do that, but well, it's done and it's very, I think, still creativity at some point when talking about the personal competencies is more like to be creative in the solutions and in making some decisions and solving some problems, you have to be creative if you're not then you're very stubborn and you won't find the way out of any particular situation. If it's more complicated. Okay this is interesting and when we touch these personal biases, that you just said, there are people from 25 countries working at the Remote Company. How is it going with this diversity? How do you see it?

Well in our case, it just happened, just because we hire remotely. We hire globally, our team is working from anywhere. Even their home locations are changing from time to time, and we're totally fine with it. I love the saying that diversity is based on location and inclusivity is global, right? Because it actually depends on where you're based - if you are in the United States, the diversity is one thing, and usually, quite often, it's about the metric - you just put everyone in one pot, you measure something and you can say either it's diverse or not. I don't focus that much on diversity - I am much more concerned about inclusivity and I care if our team members have that sense of belonging. So this is where I put my energy into.

What does it mean? Could you give an example for this?

I think in general when you work remotely, you are much more inclusive because you are thinking about each and every one, it doesn't matter if it's online, offline event, if somebody traveled around the world to your location most probably you want everybody to feel included and be there, so it can be even if you have muslim people that have to pray at certain hour, so first you're going to give them space and time to do that. But at the same time you do have to think about all others so most probably going to have coffee break at the time or something else. So it's not giving something special to one, but it's just more including everyone in the decisions. And I think this is what quite often happens in the office environment I mean, I was working in a big operation before and it was like the whole time in the office. And some people wouldn't notice some things, that somebody would never stay in a party after work, because they have kids and it's still like the same crowd everywhere. Somebody wouldn't notice that the same people are always having lunch. And the new team members are not included and this is about noticing stuff and kind of noticing the whole dynamic. How it's changing and what you can do as a leader to include these people, especially the new team members. So whenever we have a meeting my idea is always how to include everyone and make it intentionally because culture is something that doesn't matter if you do anything if you don't it will happen. But I think it's better when it happens the way you want it to be. And it's inclusive right.

Of course, well when you mentioned coffee and praying time, I remember a story of mine, because I worked in Bahrain, in Middle East and of course there was Ramadan, meaning that people don't drink, don't eat during daytime. And me I came to office and it was this first day of Ramadan, and I wanted to make coffee and then HR came to me and they were like no you cannot, because of course they won't be drinking with you but it's not nice to drink coffee in front of everyone because they're fasting. And I was so disappointed and I was just very sad because for the next month I won't be able to make coffee at office. But that HR guy was really amazing and when there was a praying time and everyone went out of office, he came to me and he was like, now you can make your coffee and I was, okay, so I will be able to have coffee at office during Ramadan. So it really takes a lot when you introduce a diverse person in some kind of the environment, you need to take care of them, right? And it's more difficult than when everyone is the same so have you had any cases like it was pretty difficult to find the solution at first and not to forget that there is another human being having their needs, basically?

I think we are always learning and we are all super open saying that we don't know so much, so we're learning with every new team member. So last new year's eve online party was with a magician. And later on I got to know that it's kind of not allowed in some cultures, so they just wrote me saying I'm sorry we couldn't participate in that event and I think that's totally fine as long as people understand that you're going to be making mistakes. Yeah, but I think you know in my case like it's just not even about the cultures or about the country or about something else, but what we do and what I really like is that every time we have a new team member, we don't say only the name, position, or country but we ask them to do Petcha Kucha presentation about themselves. So it's Petcha Kucha is a type of presentation where you have 20 slides that is automatically changing every 20 seconds so everyone has 6 minutes and 40 seconds and they record the video about themselves. So it's a great way instead of saying that there's somebody from some country and if you've never met anyone from Senegal maybe you can have some stereotypes about these people and what to expect from them -  I don't want that and quite often, we don't even mention country. We just ask everybody to watch Petcha Kucha because this is a way for people to tell their story and it's totally up to them, some of them, I mean they want to share the family story, on how they met their wife and which cousin is their best or whatever. Somebody they're really going through education and through professional achievements and so on and I think that's a really great way for people to remember the new team member because it's just not name or position,  but you remember some things because it's a story, right. And I think human beings are great at storytelling and I think giving space for people to tell more, it's a really great way kind of to start conversation even though you won't be working with that person on daily basis. It's a much more easier way to come back and say oh my god, Indre, how's your dog, right? Another thing that we're doing when we onboard is that everyone, especially all the team leaders, they have their manual on how to work with me.

Okay, yeah, it's very interesting. I also read about this one and even tried to make one myself.

It's a great way, because, okay so I'm a manager, so what does it mean? Nobody knows how I manage or how I lead and what to expect and when you work remotely, you do have a lot of assumptions guessing and it's really bad. Because it wastes of time and energy. It's very true in the office as well. But in the office you can ask people around, you can watch what's going on in the office. They do have a lot of unwritten rules as well and I think this is why hybrid environment is a tricky concept because some unwritten rules are still in office but people working remotely have no idea about them. So I love that manual, that team members that are joining my team, they can read how to work with me and at some point they might be surprised that I'm doing that. But they will know that at Sunday evening, they might get a message from me just because I got an idea that I want to share and I don't want to forget and that's it. It's not that they have to reply, I don't expect them to kind of execute on it. We're gonna have a call next week and we're gonna discuss that. So I think being upfront, being super clear in your communication something that is really needed and it's not even about cultures, about nationalities I think it's much more important to talk about what kind of people we are, what kind of personalities we are, how we work and it even starts with ourselves, knowing ourselves right? Because we do change as well right.

Yeah, that's so true because I mean how could you expect that everyone else will read your mind basically right? And if you cannot explain yourself, maybe you don't even know and one week is one expectations, you have another week, it's totally different. Also what is very interesting for me because, I believe you got one of the biggest acquisitions in Lithuania - how is the life now after you've been acquired? Do you see any changes or what was the way you know the transition period? Maybe you are still in in that period?

Yeah, I'm still CEO at MailerLite, I'm still there, I do care about the company deeply and in our case, part of the deal was that we got stocks at the publicly traded company in Poland. And so to me is that I just have a bigger team and bigger challenges. Another thing, in our case, it's more about partnership because we knew exactly why we made the deal and the polish company they wanted the global customers and the global knowledge and even actually a fun fact is that our knowledge and our experience in remote hiring and in remote environment is something that was very important in making decision for them. Because we can see how many companies they're still searching on how it could be done and are kind of a bit lost and so on in that perspective as well. In our case, they did several IPO's, it's something that we are willing to learn as well. So I think it's more a partnership and myself, I'm still there. The only thing that changed is that we just have a bigger team I guess.

Okay, this is really cool and congratulations on that because yeah, it's when you think about it and I know maybe it's a bit stupid to think so, but sometimes we lithuanians have this stereotype that we are too small, from a country which is too small and we cannot go globally and have these kind of the achievements. So I think each of this these cases give us more, us I meaning other startup founders, more and more motivation and belief that this is possible.

Yeah, but at the same time I think I'm the most thankful for the team and I think that's what I mean I'm happy that we showed that having a remote team, it's not an obstacle for being successful. And at the same time I think the future is for the global teams because that's the only way to build a global product and then this is how diversity will come as a default setting right. So yeah, I think that my perspective is that hiring globally is a great way for any leader to broaden their perspective towards world and how it works. And how you can work together.

Great. What would be your key insight for other startup founders or managers out of your experience?

I think it's really important how you form your team and my recent experience is that, in the team, we do not just need a developer, a designer, a leader, or a project manager with specific skills. But right now in our team, we're even looking at personality traits, so we're doing disc personality tasks. It's like 4 letters. And recently we did one within our smaller teams just to see if we have M1, D, and C, and interesting enough, if you don't perform that well, because you do need somebody to have a vision, you do need somebody that is more analytic, you do need somebody that acts right and loves checklists, somebody that inspires right? So I think when hiring and when forming a team, it's a great way to look at it, first to begin with you, to know who you are, and where you are the best at, and then look for others to kind of complement you. So I think that like my perspective disc is a really simple way to kind of know who does the best;  don't hire yourself. Because everybody is going to be great in some other way. It doesn't even matter what kind of position they are in.

Great! Great advice because I think this is the most common mistake to hire someone who is the same as you are, right? Because then you're somehow appreciated and some of the people might think that it's a luxury to go according to the personality types - I need a developer and I don't have this luxury to choose from, right? I just hire anyone willing to join my team. But to be not just the team but to be very successful, you need to work a little bit more and deeper. So great, thank you so much Ilma, for your time and sharing your stories, and thank you to all the listeners for more podcasts, please visit jobrely.com